Kingbeast's Lair

I recently backed the Call Of Cthulhu 7th Edition kickstarter. After backing the project I posted about it on Facebook (FB). This started off a wonderful discussion thread where luminaries like Derek Hiemforth, Scott Ruggels, and James Jandebeur submitted their takes on the topic. I thought it was so good that I wanted to cross-post it on my blog.

John Taber: I’ll be darn. Gonna sound weird coming from me but I am not sure kickstarter is needed here (i.e. for a CoC 7th Edition kickstarter).

Derek Hiemforth: Y’know, I really think Kickstarter may become a double-edged sword for the tabletop game world. Because while it’s often good for game publishers (especially those with an established following), and it might reach a few people who would never be reached through traditional distribution, it can often be *not* so good for game stores.

I’ve heard more than one retailer note that they won’t order any more Kickstarted games (for shelf stock; they’ll still do special orders). Not because of some moral objection or pouting about being cut out of the loop, but simply because they don’t sell. Why? Because (especially for already-well-known games) almost everyone who wanted it, got it by backing the Kickstarter. So by the time it would reach the store shelves, the demand has largely been filled already.

And who knows? Maybe it’ll turn out that that’s okay, and that the future role of the “game store” lies more in providing play space. But somehow I don’t think so. Kickstarter is great for making niche products possible. And I definitely understand why game publishers might want to Kickstart well-known, well-liked properties, in hopes of hitting the “Fate Core” lottery. 🙂

But long-term, I have misgivings about the practice’s impact on the game trade and on tabletop RPG gaming as a hobby. It’s already long been a shrinking niche. If we get to a point where you don’t see it on game store shelves anymore, and only discover it online if you already know about it, I fear we run the risk of becoming even more niche-y, and shrinking even more…

John Taber: I can see the impact on game stores but for me as an “end user RPG gamer already” kickstarters are awesome. They are a way to get products or special editions of products into my hands that I may not have been able to get without kickstarter. In fact out of my 50+ pledged kickstarter campaigns I bet only 1 or 2 would have been released WITHOUT being kickstarted first. CoC 7th is one of the few that would have been released WITHOUT a kickstarter IMHO…thus my comment. 😉 Anywho…well put reply Derek…miss talkin’ with about this stuff in person. Nobody in my old time gaming group…my only regular session…likes to talk about the RPG industry. 🙁

Scott Albert Henry Ruggels: I like kickstarter as a concept. On the other hand, I see what the problem is, for the retailers. It’s a very valid argument. Personally for RPG Publishers, I am not really the target audience any more, because the current generation’s preferences aren’t mine, in terms of Mechanics and background. Back in the days of Rec.arts.frp.arguments.miniscule in the old newsgroups, styles were discussed, and axes of interest and classification were developed. What has happened is that the publishers, chasing shorter and shorter attention spans and more media saturated imaginations, have ever simpler or missing mechanics, and ever more genre savvy (Dramatist), and self referential rules. Chasing trends, and chasing fashion, and that leaves my mechanics heavy, Situationist (simulationist, dice don’t lie) sound unsatisfied. What I want would be RPG products of more universal value, like a new battle mat, supplements for Hero System or GURPS, or Cyberpunk, rather than a whole new set of rules for how to run a Zombie Apocalypse Campaign, or how to convert the latest Cable TV darling show into a table top campaign. So, until I can get a small 3d printer to make 25mm or 54mm miniatures from my Mudbox and Maya files, I am reluctant to back any or many RPG Kickstarters.

Derek Hiemforth: Aaaaand… it’s funded already. Depending on what kind of stretch goals they put in place, this shows all signs of potentially going through the roof…

James Jandebeur: My problem with the idea that Kickstarter hurts game stores is that what you are describing was already the trend in every game store I have seen in the last fifteen years with the exception of Game Kastle, at least for the materials that I am the most interested in. They don’t stock them, and I lose interest since I can order them myself. It may be accelerating it, but it was already there.

John Taber I agree with Derek and James…yeah it is a problem but yeah it has been there for a while. In my mind the benefits of kickstarters on the RPG industry outweighs the negative impact on game stores. It seems like having many more products that people are willing to put up money for before they are produced (i.e. where they have a vested interest) means that game stores should have more products to sell that folks will want to buy. Yeah some folks who got in early will not need to buy them but many other might. My old gaming group is a good example. In that group I am the only one who follows the industry and does kickstarters. If I decide to run one of them many of the players in my game will buy products. So the kickstarter got the product initially produced and made it possible for my players to buy it.

Derek Hiemforth: Kickstarters for projects that couldn’t get done otherwise, or Kickstarters where the goal amount is literally just a Kick”starter” amount to cover publishing costs, I think are fine. The danger, IMV, lies in taking books like this — that most local game stores would stock, and that the game publisher is in no real danger of not being able to sell — and making it impossible for game stores to compete.

For example, say you’re Kickstarting a book that game stores will sell for $40. But by backing the Kickstarter for $40, you get the book, the PDF (which the game store can’t provide), free delivery (which the game store can’t provide), a bunch of neato freebie extras from stretch goals or whatever (which the game store can’t provide), and credit in the book (which the game store can’t provide). Obviously, anyone who knows about the product early enough, and who trusts the creators to follow through on the project, would be a complete fool to *not* back the Kickstarter.

I know multiple game stores that used to back Kickstarters that had retailer tiers, in order to get some for the store shelves, but have since stopped doing that, specifically because *they didn’t sell*. So either the projects in question just had no appeal to anyone other than the people who backed the Kickstarter, or everyone who wanted the book already got it by backing the Kickstarter. It’s not like they’re speculating that *maybe* Kickstarted books won’t sell… they’re observing that the Kickstarted books *didn’t* sell.

The obvious solution would be to find some kind of happy medium, where there’s still enough reason for hardcore fans to want to back the Kickstarter that it will still get funded, but not *so* much reason to back the Kickstarter that one would be cutting their own throat by choosing to buy it at their FLGS instead. For instance, maybe any pledge levels that include the physical book could actually cost *more* than the book will retail for, but make it appealing to hardcore fans in other ways (credit in the book, signed copies, obscure swag, etc.). That would give the more casual fan, or one who didn’t care about that stuff, a reason to wait for it to hit the FLGS, and pick it up at the slightly lower retail price.

Of course, this would absolutely lower the amount of money game *publishers* would make through the Kickstarters, even if the Kickstarters still funded successfully. So it’s certainly understandable why they might be reluctant to do it. They would essentially be making a sacrifice for the overall health of the game trade, and it might make more sense for them to look out for themselves (especially if they feel game stores aren’t exactly doing *them* any favors).

I dunno… I think it’s most likely still evolving, and that it will either settle into something that co-exists in some kind of symbiotic relationship with game stores, takes over the RPG market almost entirely, or almost entirely fades away from the market. Right now, I think it’s still in flux.

Derek Hiemforth: Or to address James & John’s point more directly, I think there’s a difference between “People at our store don’t buy these here because we don’t stock them,” and “We don’t stock these, because when we have, people haven’t bought them here.” I agree that many game stores don’t really seem to get the difference, but I know at least some do.

James Jandebeur: I suspect that game stores, if they survive, will have wireless Internet access, virtual bookshelves on the walls, a POD station, and a place to play. Which wouldn’t be all bad.

Derek Hiemforth: I agree. Actually, I think as POD quality improves, pretty much all printing, or at least, all printing for niche audiences like the RPG market, will go POD…

In 2012 Atlas Games came out with a list of 31 RPG related questions that they wanted people to answer. I will tackle them in small bite sized morsels to make them a bit easier to swallow. Here are the next set of questions.

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #21: What’s the best bribe you’ve ever given (or received as) a GM? What did you get (give) for it?

My players are pretty darn awesome so I get spoiled all the time. I guess my favorite is when the gang brought me a BBQ food and beer for the last session in a campaign. I was not easy on them afterwards but they still won and had a GREAT time. 🙂

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #22: Describe the worst game you’ve ever played in. What made it so bad? Did your fellow players help, or make it worse?

I have played in a LOT of pretty terrible games over the years. Some of the con games I have played in went pretty badly. In one game the PC were provided. The GM presented the adventure and one of the PC had something that was almost directly opposed to the story the GM had laid out. The player convinced the PC to aid the opposing side in the conflict. When the PC eventually agreed after some awesome roleplaying the GM retcon’d the entire start of the session and asked the players to follow the plot. We all just looked at the GM with blank stares. Unfortunately I stayed at the game and it continued to go down hill.

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #23: Have you ever experienced Total Party Kill (TPK), or been close to it? What effect did that have on you personally? On your group of players? Have you ever used retroactive continuity (retcon) to save yourself? Why or why not?

In one of my Fantasy Hero campaigns the PC went down into a frozen ice crevasse to stop some marauding bugbear type creatures. In the battle in their icy lair the PC had a tough time moving but the bugbears had claws that would dig into the ice. Quickly the big battle pitched towards the enemy. One PC got away with an extremely brilliant move. He then had to climb out alone. I felt really bad as the GM but afterwards the players could not stop talking about that adventure.

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #24: Have you ever been to a game convention? What was it like to be surrounded by so many other gamers? If not, would you like to go to one? Why or why not?

I have been going to gaming conventions for many years. I was at DunDraCon IV…this year was DunDraCon XXXVII. 🙂 Going to conventions is a wonderful experience in so many ways. I’ve always said that it is like hanging out with 2000 of your closest friends. Gaming conventions always recharge my gaming batteries. Now that I have kids gaming conventions are much harder to attend but worst case I try to go up for a single day. 😉

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #25: If you game enough, you’re bound to run into someone being an ass. What’s the most asinine thing someone’s done in a game with you? How did you react? Did that experience change the way you game?

I’ve been lucky to play with really wonderful players in my regular gaming group although everyone has their moments. Probably the biggest issues occurred way back in high school when I used to game. Back in high school I played with a player who took things personally. One time when I was running his character was paralyzed then eaten by a monster. The player got mad and stormed off. About a week later we found garbage all over the front of our house. I don’t know it was from him but I suspect it was. Since that time I follow some advice I once heard on the Fear The Boot podcast. Only game with people you would hang out with if you were NOT gaming. 😉

GAME ON! 😀

In 2012 Atlas Games came out with a list of 31 RPG related questions that they wanted people to answer. I will tackle them in small bite sized morsels to make them a bit easier to swallow. Here are the next set of questions.

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #16: Who was the most memorable foe you’ve ever come up against in a game? How did you beat him/her/it? Or did you?

I predominately GM so I am going to answer this questions from the other side of the table. I’ve placed several memorable foes up against my players. One of my favorites was in my Star Aria campaign. The villain was named Ankmil. Ankmil was from a long dead race known as the Patriarchs. The reason he is so memorable is that he was seen doing so many horrible things that the PC really wanted to take him down. On top of that Ankmil was doing these deeds out of pure reason and logic. The PC took him down in a truly climactic battle that I will never forget. You can read about it on the log page at this URL.

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #17: What was the best reward you’ve ever gotten in a game? What made it so great? How much do you need tangible rewards (loot, leveling, etc.) to enjoy a game?

Boy there are a lot of neat “treasures” that my PCs have received over the years. Probably the most memorable item belonged to my college D&D PC named Seth. Seth got a magic ring that could summon an extremely powerful undead entity known as “Ingird”. Well Ingrid was nasty but she came with a price. She took commands literally and complied them with deadly force. Ingird was a perfect “double-edged sword” for a summoning mage. 😉

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #18: Have you ever “cheated” on a die roll/random chance outcome, or looked up a quest solution on a fan site? Why or why not? If yes, was it worth it?

I have very different answers for each part of this question. 🙂

As a GM I have cheated on dice rolls. I only do this when I think it will advance the plot or at times when the death of a PC is on the line. In these cases I will sometimes make exceptions so it is more fun for everyone.

I have never looked up table-top RPG modules online to get details about the adventure. I love being surprised by adventures and GMs so I think this is totally bush league. I have heard of players doing this from some of my friends. If I ever find out my players are doing this in my games I’ll skin ’em alive…ok…maybe I’ll kill them first…then skin ’em. :}

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #19: What’s the weirdest character you’ve ever played? How did you end up with him/her/it?

I have not played too many “weird” PCs over the years but I have seen a couple in my games so I will talk about one of those. The weirdest PC I saw in one of my games was a Champions character called The Michelin Man. Yep, he was that Michelin Man. The PC was a brick that could entangle by throwing tires around the target. Argh. :]

REVERB GAMERS 2012, #20: What was the most memorable character death you’ve ever experienced? What makes it stick with you?

I’ve actually had many character deaths over the years. I think the most memorable death was so memorable because it was so funny. Two Champions PC were exploring an island where they suspected super-villains might be hiding. The telekinetic PC lifted my martial artist PC, Cestus, through a waterfall so he could look around. Behind the waterfall were a squad of alerted agents with automatic weapons. They cut loose on my poor martial artist who could not dodge as he was being held by telekinesis. When the telekinetic PC removed Cestus from the waterfall all that was left was a bloody corpse. 😀

GAME ON! 😀